I think the change to make cheesing less effective with the bonus points is great. Not a fan of giving different bosses different score amounts though. It starts getting too micro-managing and it feels like it’s punishing everyone because some people might cheese.
Don’t think that separating bosses based on difficulty or mechanics should be a thing.
HFA is ruined by HFA, Reaver is ruined by super speed kills, Kormrok is ruined by hands, iskar is ruined by adds, etc.
I don’t see a point in separating boss except for telling people that they should try harder to padd on end bosses vs early ones.
I was reluctant at first when I heard about this change on the horizon, selfishly I didn’t mind getting an extra 76 points from the 95th percentile Mage on Reaver. I had 97, the mage at 239k had 21.
With the new system, I get 118.4 it appears, the 95th percentile Mage gets 99.2. This change reduced the gap between me and that mage from 76 (old formula) to 19.2 (new formula). Looking at this objectively, I can’t deny that this is more than reasonable, I still feel like I’m rewarded for doing 5x more damage than that player, but I’d no longer have a free pass under the old formula to not try on a boss and still beat that player on the All-stars list.
I would agree that the end bosses have a natural curve to parse well on them already due to the nature of the fights. Class diversity is still relevant on longer kill times than fights like Reaver, so weighting them differently would devalue the rest of the instance I feel, but from what I understand you’re leaning away from that anyways.
As someone who cares about logs and puts effort into them, even tho I was negatively impacted in some fashion by this - I still like what you’ve done and rationally I feel the changes were for the better. The playing field just got a lot closer among the top 10.
Important information to note is that on Kilrogg for example, it’s literally impossible to 95th percentile without doing Visions as a Marksmanship Hunter (and surely so for MANY other classes). So basically, if you go in you get 20 bonus points. Max skill.
At the VERY LEAST, Kilrogg should be banned or reduced in value. Council, OK fine, you can top 20 parse as MM with good RNG and no Fel Rage which is 99th. HFA you can also 95th on fairly easily without doing any cheese, but Kilrogg is absolutely retarded.
Fact is that top guilds are killing Kilrogg before Visions even happen, so the best players in the best guilds don’t even have a shot at Visions in the first place. In fact, being sent in (if you don’t just outheal it) is detrimental unless you’re a strong AoE class, because the boss dies before you exit the first Visions.
It’s a dumb system for ranking and if anything Kilrogg should just be banned outright for this reason. It’s incredibly stupid, and even if you kill it super fucking fast with no Visions, it’s still impossible to get 95th percentile (I have a 36 second kill which is 94th only).
Last i checked, rankings are just indication of who does more dps.
Are we going to ban all kills with > 7 arcane mages in it, because it’s unfair towards others for rankings ?
Yeah, I am inclined to just remove Kilrogg from All Stars. Everyone in top guilds is running into the same issue on that one, which is that you kill it without needing Visions any longer, so people who are worse at the fight actually have random players parsing better than the best players in the world. The rankings list on the fight effectively doesn’t make any sense because of that.
While High Council has a similar mechanic, you will at least see that mechanic every week while speed killing, and as you pointed out, 95% is easy to achieve even without getting Fel Rage.
Another idea for fights like Kilrogg would be to make bonus points available at lower % than 95. If you assume the top 5% of ranks are because of Visions etc., then allowing anyone at 90%+ to earn the bonus points instead of 95%+ might be a decent solution.
Alternatively I could just exclude Kilrogg completely. Excluding it probably makes the most sense, since it’s an example of a boss whose rankings list is hopelessly corrupted and not indicative of anything.
I appreciate you removing Kilrogg, was a super dumb fight.
Now I look at this new shiny thing and take a deep breath, then smile. I finally don’t have to bookmark my spec leaderboard anymore and worry about crazy outliers, I can just peek at my role server/world side and get some really good satisfaction. Thanks a lot Kihra, me love you long time. If there was a plan above plat I’d jump on it right away.
Also you might have missed it yesterday but is there any way to show current guild (and maybe average ilvl) in the new role all-stars block like you do per bosses? There seems to be alot of free space across the table.
Are you also going to exclude HFA (top 400 speed guilds are sub 7 min, the highest parse that can be seen is rank 617)
Tyrant (top 250 = 4min, only 14 out of top 200 ranks are sub 4 min)
And etc ?
It seems absurd to remove fights because some of the better players can’t pad on them as well as they can on others.
I would think that you could also scale difficulty of obtaining the bonus points by raising the rank % on an end boss such as Archimonde. That way it would be quite difficult to achieve the bonus points adding another skill element. Both you and your guild would have to be well geared, experienced, and skilled as a group to be able to allow their players to unlock those final point potentials.
I don’t, however, like the idea of weighting fights at all. It seems very subjective and, as others have stated, may unfairly punish specs that are extremely good on those fights.
*Edit: I would also like to see your current spec rank on each fight in your character overview.
Can you keep him in for healing because it doesn’t effect healing.
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I disagree.
I think it adds an interesting element if speed kills do not always yield the best personal rankings. You wind up having to decide if you want to go for a rank or for a speed kill. Either way, I have succeeded in asking my guild to cool it on a few bosses to let me rank or to do a sub-optimal strat to get a rank. Additionally, there is nothing stopping anyone from going into the visions to get a rank, so I think it’s completely fair in that regard. Sure, some classes are better and may get priority, but everyone has the potential to go into Visions.
Another argument is that slowing down is one of the only things every guild can control whereas speeding up for a rank is highly determinant on having a metric shit ton of FotM classes (Mages), something that not every guild can accommodate.
Finally, would you only discount it for DPS or would it be discounted for every role? Seems arbitrary.
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See my earlier post on this, but I don’t believe this is necessary. The set of players that have killed Archimonde is much smaller than early HFC bosses, and those players have a much higher average item level. In other words, the difficulty of getting into the top 5% is already going up simply by virtue of the fact that the set of players competing becomes smaller and better geared.
I see that you removed Kilrogg from the ranking list. I just want to voice my opinion and say that I am extremely opposed to that decision. Additionally, blanket removing the encounter with no consideration on spec is extremely frustrating to me as there is still a wealth of potential for healing in that encounter sans Visions.
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^ This. And also what I said.
I haven’t removed Kilrogg yet. Just pre-flight testing that a value of 0.0 doesn’t break the UI.
The specific issue with Kilrogg when compared with other bosses is that normally “cheese” parses constitute a very small overall %, so your rank position is not adversely affected, and the bonus points are still obtainable. In the case of Kilrogg, think of Visions as “cheese” that constitutes the full top 5% of the ranks. That’s way out of bounds compared with all the other fights.
People keep bringing up HFA, but it is completely possible to get a high % rank on HFA without any cheesing. It’s not even remotely in the same league as Kilrogg. Same with Hellfire High Council, i.e., you can obtain 95% without getting Fel Rage.
I admit I did not consider Healing, so the bonus points solution might actually be better than flat out removal.
I would think of it as cheese if it were a random selection similar to Council, however, it is not. You can decide whom to send into Visions and you can adjust the speed of the kill to allow for players to utilize the Vision’s buff. There is literally nothing stopping any player from going into Visions, coming out, and utilizing the full effect of the buff to obtain a rank.
I 100% don’t believe that you can get a good parse on HFA unless you ask your guild to slow down on dps and not explode everything. If your raid is capable of killing kilrogg before visions, everything will melt on HFA and you will have a ton of downtime.
If asking your raid to slow down/stop dps is “valid” on HFA, i don’t see why it isn’t valid on kilrogg.
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